tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post4946322892122098197..comments2023-12-23T19:04:18.739-05:00Comments on The Crow's Eye: HumiliationJack Crowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-65384830928747722082011-08-10T16:24:56.976-04:002011-08-10T16:24:56.976-04:00Ergo,
I don't think outliers communicate that...Ergo,<br /><br />I don't think outliers communicate that much about the subject population group, is all. Most Americans are Christian. Replying to that fact with, "but I'm an atheist" doesn't really address the main point, which is that most Americans are Christians.<br /><br />KFO,<br /><br />You'll get over it. Or not. It is amusing that I'm a "tribalist" and a "charlatan" because I took on conservative shitwits, but it's all "right on, Jack!" when I'm infinitely nastier to liberals.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-83569604597265764572011-08-10T15:47:38.614-04:002011-08-10T15:47:38.614-04:00So all of Jack's "teaps" vote GOP.
...So all of Jack's "teaps" vote GOP.<br /><br />big fucking deal.<br /><br />since when does the GOP control what's happening in America right now?<br /><br />since when has the "teap" (what a fucking IDIOTIC idea that monniker is, it is none but identity politics of an "I'm better than you" sort) had any power over the US Economy or political process or Fed Govt wrangling?<br /><br />what's the practical connection here?<br /><br />to make Susan of Texas and Landru and Big Bald Bastard feel "welcome" because you share their fucktard identity politics of NOT EVIL RETHUGLICAN?<br /><br />jesus christ, what a charlatan you turned out to be.<br /><br />at least you're not imitating me directly any more. grateful for that part.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-67258207637614877812011-08-10T12:22:12.945-04:002011-08-10T12:22:12.945-04:00I guess being an outlier myself, I am sympathetic ...I guess being an outlier myself, I am sympathetic to other outliers, be they on the left, right, anarchist, or underclass. I'd rather be pretty clear about who the obstructions are, especially if you are going to be psychoanalyzing them in ways that are, shall we say, (un)fairly brutal. The obstructions are duopoly partisans in my opinion. I have little to no interest in attacking nonvoters or even people considered fringe, because they have no power nor are they empowering others. Ask me again when the Third Palmetto Republic has successfully seceded and they try to impose a poll tax.<br /><br />Talking about groups in ways that necessarily lump in the outliers with the partisans, I'd rather avoid. Cuneyt was right to point out how I'm being hypocritical here. If there are a number of self-identifying progressives advocating not participating in the charade of voting next year, then I will eat crow as it were. Likewise if there are no Tea Partiers willing to do the same. This is probably naively optimistic on my part, but I fully expect there to be the lowest voter turnout in history next year. Under 50% seems guaranteed, and if it hit 40% I would be fucking ecstatic. I find it difficult to believe that that would be possible if all the so-called Tea Partiers are participating. But maybe I'm wrong.ergonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-53994648800005726332011-08-10T11:55:29.736-04:002011-08-10T11:55:29.736-04:00Ergo,
The point of corralling the Teaps is to kee...Ergo,<br /><br />The point of corralling the Teaps is to keep them voting Republican. That's the what-for of the re-branding effort.<br /><br />And I don't really see the point of introducing the outliers. Sure, 10% of Teaps won't vote for a Republican as a matter of habit. That makes them outliers, no?<br /><br />If we focus on outliers, we miss the point of the vast majority, don't we?Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-11202976975501874052011-08-10T11:41:38.185-04:002011-08-10T11:41:38.185-04:00But, his listeners and followers are as clear a re...<i>But, his listeners and followers are as clear a representation of the Teap movement as you can find, and they are all in one place.</i><br /><br />I agree with this to the extent that this is as clear representation of partisan mentality as you can find. Look I don't deny that Tea Party-identifiers vote overwhelmingly for Republicans. They coalesced around opposition to a Democratic president. Then DC hacks and their media servants went to work to make sure the narrative was about race or death panels or whatever that has nothing to do with our corporate overlords, in a sad attempt to deligitimate any principled decentralist, or anti-Wall Street, critique.<br /><br />I am not saying that partisan voters have principles. They have none. This is true for Democrats and Republicans alike.<br /><br />But all the stuff about marketing and labels, so what? Why did the Donksphere take on the progressive label? Because their brand was shit and there was popular sentiment to be exploited. Now progressive is more or less equivalent to Donk shill. Was this true in 2000 when self-identifying progressives were campaigning against Gore?<br /><br />Let's take your statistics as given just for the sake of argument. What about the 10% who won't vote for a Republican over a Democrat? I assume at least some of these people aren't going to be pulling the lever for Obama. What about them?ergonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-36268434265015501432011-08-10T11:02:15.645-04:002011-08-10T11:02:15.645-04:00Ergo,
Sean Hannity may be a mainstream Republican...Ergo,<br /><br />Sean Hannity may be a mainstream Republican. Scratch that. He absolutely is. This is a guy who backed Giuliani and will go full court press for either Bachmann, Romney or Perry.<br /><br />But, his listeners and followers are as clear a representation of the Teap movement as you can find, and they are all in one place.<br /><br />If you watch Teap voting patterns, it's all for Republicans. 70% of the self-identify as Republicans, and I think 90% of them will vote for a Republican over a Democrat.<br /><br />It's erroneous, I believe, to treat with the Tea Party as distinct from the Republican Party. In 2008, the GOP brand was shit. It had worse markers than that of frat boy vomit on a church lady's dress.<br /><br />What did FreedomWorks and AFP do?<br /><br />They coughed up a "new" brand.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-57267963227977566952011-08-10T10:28:42.812-04:002011-08-10T10:28:42.812-04:00Also, I don't know what a "fastpunch"...Also, I don't know what a "fastpunch" is. I think my autopilot kicked on there. I'm sure my point is evident.Cüneythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09839492265797382364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-4360485109153029952011-08-10T10:27:34.200-04:002011-08-10T10:27:34.200-04:00Your perspective's no more skewed than mine; n...Your perspective's no more skewed than mine; neither of us knows the whole country, much less any preponderance of any politico-cultural group. So let me say it clearly: I'm talking out of my ass here.<br /><br />All I can say is that my direct experience of the people in my life who attended Tea Party rallies, and the discussions I had with people afterward in the area, made me feel that they were as critical of the GOP as all those peace-sign wearing MFers at Obama rallies are now critical of the Obama wars.<br /><br />There may be some exceptions to that; I wouldn't be surprised if many TPers are angry. Some of them have to be intelligent and honest enough to see that, but I feel they're about as common as are critics of the Obama campaign who were caught up in the swell of 2008.<br /><br />That said, my bias comes from the fact that I use the deprecation of both TPers and Obamaniacs to get a lot of headway with local conservatives in the area and with my family. That may be a rhetorical fastpunch, but I am a political snake myself.Cüneythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09839492265797382364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-74949403330844440202011-08-10T10:17:29.678-04:002011-08-10T10:17:29.678-04:00Cuneyt,
No apology necessary. I see your point bu...Cuneyt,<br /><br />No apology necessary. I see your point but there are a couple things to point out here. Jack's post about progressives was rather explicitly connected to the fact that these are Donk voters. If he was making some blanket post about leftists that never once mentioned the Democratic party, I might have objected in a similar way.<br /><br />Are Tea Partiers as pro-Republican as progressives are pro-Democrat? That's not really my impression, maybe they are, but what is the basis for this? Will they vote at the same proportions in the upcoming election? I guess we'll see. When Jack says the Tea Party needs liberals and vice versa, I understand this but only if he means Republican partisans need Democratic partisans. Frankly I'm more inclined to take seriously a rightist psychoanalysis of a Tea Partier the same way I would be more inclined to take seriously a leftist psychoanalysis of a progressive.<br /><br />I am aware that I may have a skewed perspective. I read from the anarchist and anti-imperialist blogosphere, which includes leftists and paleocons, to the exclusion of mainstream and partisan media. Pretty much the only exposure I get to the M$M is whenever IOZ links to some NYT article or Crispy talks about what he saw on CNN. Call that willful ignorance if you like. I do it to maintain sanity.ergonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-14686721569498272252011-08-10T09:02:16.100-04:002011-08-10T09:02:16.100-04:00ergo,
I agree with you that there are concentrati...ergo,<br /><br />I agree with you that there are concentrations of power that have actively used their resources to promote organizing people in ways that entrench their own positions within the ruling class. I also agree that the progressives are not people who emerged from the aether three years ago.<br /><br />But not to be totally dense here, I think your argument would better be served by saying "Democratic voter" rather than "pwoggie". Yeah they supported a Democratic president and hated the Republican presidents who preceded him. They are hypocrites. Just like Republican voters who hate Obama for all the things Bush was doing back then that were just fine to them.<br /><br />Are you saying progressive-identifiers have 100% voter turnout? I tried to find some stuff about this but I couldn't. Anyway, at this point I am more curious as to what your thoughts are on the following questions: Who constitutes the rest of the Democratic voting base? What about the leftwing third partiers? And the leftwing nonvoters? How do you differentiate these groups from the progressives?<br /><br />(A humble experiment; sorry to use your words.)Cüneythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09839492265797382364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-23494827488768251502011-08-10T08:32:41.431-04:002011-08-10T08:32:41.431-04:00*facepalm*
But for you, friend Jack, nothing but ...*facepalm*<br /><br />But for you, friend Jack, nothing but thanks for rewarding and restoring my faith in you. Not that I ever took any of the otherside personally.Landruhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11954074164878242561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-55934189864899952262011-08-10T01:05:36.060-04:002011-08-10T01:05:36.060-04:00Jack,
I agree with you that there are concentrati...Jack,<br /><br />I agree with you that there are concentrations of power that have actively used their resources to promote organizing people in ways that entrench their own positions within the ruling class. I also agree that the Tea Party is not people who emerged from the aether three years ago. <br /><br />But not to be totally dense here, I think your argument would better be served by saying "Republican voter" rather than "teap". Yeah they supported a Republican president and hated the Democratic presidents who preceded and followed him. They are hypocrites. Just like Democratic voters who hated Bush for all the things Obama is doing now that are just fine to them.<br /><br />Are you saying Tea Party-identifiers have 100% voter turnout? I tried to find some stuff about this but I couldn't. Anyway, at this point I am more curious as to what your thoughts are on the following questions: Who constitutes the rest of the Republican voting base? What about the rightwing third partiers? And the rightwing nonvoters? How do you differentiate these groups from the Tea Partiers?ergonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-17171737186163962002011-08-10T00:26:23.091-04:002011-08-10T00:26:23.091-04:00ergo,
Follow the money. Follow the money. Follow ...ergo,<br /><br />Follow the money. Follow the money. Follow the money. <br /><br />Look at who founded the Teaper orgs, who pays for them, and who promotes their message. These people were corralled by FreedomWorks, Americans For Prosperity, FOX News and the same old spectre of the fucking Scaifes.<br /><br />They're not - not, not, not - some new phenom. You want to know who the Teaps are? They're the same demographic which zealously supported BushCo for eight years.<br /><br />All those funding mechanisms come from "mainstream Republicans."<br /><br />And the Teaps are not - I mean, seriously fucking NOT - non-voters.<br /><br />I can't understand how you can watch what they're doing and conclude that the Teaps are some segment of non-voters.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-70628481128895641492011-08-10T00:16:18.647-04:002011-08-10T00:16:18.647-04:00I'm not sure I buy this argument. Hannity is t...I'm not sure I buy this argument. Hannity is the face of the Republican party. As such, they will claim the mantle of the Right, because there is popular sentiment to be exploited. Of course they hate the paleos who criticize them. This is no different from Daily Kos and god knows how many pwog sites claiming the mantle of the Left, who equally hate socialists and their own critics. They are all shilling for the duopoly. I'm more interested in the nonvoting half of the population anyway.<br /><br />I think the part of your argument that I don't understand is your equation of the Tea Party wholesale with the Republican party. What is the basis for this? Because there are more party hacks than paleos in the general population? What about the paleos who nevertheless identify with the Tea Party? I was not aware that they had conceded the mantle of conservatism. Maybe you are distinguishing between the Right, conservatives, Tea Party, and Republicans in ways that aren't clear to me?ergonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-38190546670845655472011-08-09T23:49:26.330-04:002011-08-09T23:49:26.330-04:00And I'm really not sure how identifying the Te...And I'm really not sure how identifying the Tea Party in its proper context is doing advance work for the Democrats.<br /><br />The Dems and the Teaps are working the Ratchet with remarkable efficiency. They need each other. <br /><br />It's the Tea Party which is doing the work of the Democrats, by putting a demonstrably idiotic face on "anti-government" unrest. Not that Teaps are anti-government. Anyone who thinks that isn't reading their screeds, listening to their speeches, or looking at their program.<br /><br />They want a State, all right. A nasty, vicious, lean, efficient one which enforces an ugly Christianity, and which is well funded enough to take up a total war with Islam. A state which sheds all of its welfare functions, privatizes highways, sell off state and national parks to private operators, and demolishes the Commons in their entirety.<br /><br />These are people who actively promote the idea that Obama is a Kenyan socialist who has organized groups of black men to terrorize white people, and who is deliberately trying to scuttle middle (read, White) America in order to bring about a UN supervised socialist dictatorship.<br /><br />These people are astroturfed into stupidity, and it wasn't really all that hard to do it. As was mentioned above - they are the heirs to the John Birch Society. Or often enough, youthful Birchers themselves.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-54422625651168103572011-08-09T23:35:13.705-04:002011-08-09T23:35:13.705-04:00Ergo,
The Paleos are not Tea Partiers. About twen...Ergo,<br /><br />The Paleos are not Tea Partiers. About twenty effective minutes into the Teap phenomena, the Paulists lost their claim to the mantle and were overtaken by the values voters and Christianists who have long despised Ron Paul and the paleos.<br /><br />You have but to read through the largest Teaper internet forum to have this made abundantly clear:<br /><br />http://forums.hannity.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=7<br /><br />The Tea Party is exactly the same "Moral Majority" which has been agitating for a lean, mean, efficient theocratic state it has always supported. <br /><br />You cannot let yourself be snowed by a clumsy rebranding effort.<br /><br />[And for what it's worth, here in NH, the Tea Partiers are ridden though with the ugliest skinhead and nativist elements. I went to their thousand person strong rally, and it was a who's who of local bigots, Yellow Fringers, skins and Freestater goons.]Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-59307798997374230812011-08-09T23:24:50.038-04:002011-08-09T23:24:50.038-04:00Why the refusal here to differentiate between part...Why the refusal here to differentiate between partisan hacks willing to co-opt whatever popular movement comes along in order to enact policy no different from the other faction in DC, and then people who have legitimate grievances against the ruling elite, but who may couch their discontent in a rightwing viewpoint, or a religious viewpoint, or a traditionalist viewpoint?<br /><br />A cursory look around the paleocon blogosphere reveals that the idea that the Tea Party is a monolithic group, particularly a monolithic group of warmongers, is a bit ridiculous. Lumping nonvoting Tea Party-identifiers in with Republican hacks and then stereotyping the sum only serves the ownership class because it a/ keeps the masses divided and conquered whilst fighting over table scraps and b/ reinforces the narrative they try to sell year in and year out to keep enough people believing that our democracy isn't fake. Why are you making the Donkle campaign pitch for them?ergonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-75455849010351269502011-08-09T22:19:48.284-04:002011-08-09T22:19:48.284-04:00this thread is a bonanza of ignorancethis thread is a bonanza of ignoranceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-34850113858230016622011-08-09T21:06:42.555-04:002011-08-09T21:06:42.555-04:00Teap, Arty and awayyy!
http://tpmmuckraker.talkin...Teap, Arty and awayyy!<br /><br />http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/08/to_infini-tea_and_beyond_tea_party_in_space_aims_t.php?ref=fpbDavid K Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10756535951359716522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-92062594446431785742011-08-09T21:04:50.776-04:002011-08-09T21:04:50.776-04:00Thanks folks. Hope to get in some replies tomorrow...Thanks folks. Hope to get in some replies tomorrow.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-78774318399517192462011-08-09T19:18:53.981-04:002011-08-09T19:18:53.981-04:00Jack, that's certainly been my experience. I ...Jack, that's certainly been my experience. I have sympathy toward faux-libertarian good ol' boys when they bitch about elitism, but the fact is that they want socialism--for them and their sort. And it wasn't so long ago when this stuff was very powerful and very visible. Bushism lives on, our Kennedyesque motherfucker in the WH notwithstanding.<br /><br />Anyway, I liked <a href="http://ladypoverty.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Boyd's</a> take on the Tea Party as an opportunity to critics of government rather than an essential foe, but that said, there's plenty that the Tea Party has been supporting and which they have voiced, and I'm sick of pretending that they're regular folks posing thoughtful critiques of politics as usual. They are nothing more than an echo of the "outsider" rhetoric that got Obama the nomination, mixed with the domestic rightwing paranoia we've come to expect since the John Birchers.Cüneythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09839492265797382364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-62980194656195139642011-08-09T16:25:27.822-04:002011-08-09T16:25:27.822-04:00I think the Teahadis are scared shitless, as well ...I think the Teahadis are scared shitless, as well as humiliated. They think that the coming minority-majority will treat them with the same amount of respect that they have always shown minorities... that prospect has them terrified.<br /><br />Fear and rage, like cornered animals.Big Bad Bald Bastardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01983025559556548658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-5968145575179114112011-08-09T16:16:17.613-04:002011-08-09T16:16:17.613-04:00"But now, when she talks about a battle for &..."But now, when she talks about a battle for "the soul of America""<br /><br />I'd have to stop right there. A more nonsensical bit of gibberish I could hardly construct. Euphamism piled atop euphamism, all begging clarification examination, all abstractions of premise and assumption. What the hell is meant by a soul, America, and how does America have a soul, and ho exactly do we fight over it? And who is we?<br /><br />Digby thinks the soul of America is fought over between primarily in politics. I have yet to ever read what she or anyone else means by any of that. I am not trying to be a dick, I know this type of boilerplate is very common in our rhetoric. I have found that it all means anything whoever says and hears it wants it to mean, which is another way of saying that it means nothing.Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02924326177370725150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-4550616741244411372011-08-09T14:30:00.139-04:002011-08-09T14:30:00.139-04:00not reallynot reallyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-24415397860031369252011-08-09T14:20:34.248-04:002011-08-09T14:20:34.248-04:00Jack,
Thanks for the great response, and of cours...Jack,<br /><br />Thanks for the great response, and of course I definitely agree with you in terms of style: the last thing I want is for you to exchange your aggressive polemic for the dithery passive style of the Yglesias types, not only because that style is more boring, but also because it's long since been co-opted by the neoliberals.<br /><br />But yes, good, I'm glad to get a large sense of the context.Roseannenoreply@blogger.com