tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post3928578514358557297..comments2023-12-23T19:04:18.739-05:00Comments on The Crow's Eye: Faggot: A RevaluationJack Crowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-66079816243106352952011-10-01T08:43:03.705-04:002011-10-01T08:43:03.705-04:00Duncan,
If you're going to lie, please at lea...Duncan,<br /><br />If you're going to lie, please at least do it in such a way that you're not so obvious about it.<br /><br />I didn't say "faggot doesn't mean homosexual." I didn't complain about the TSA. And I don't think that class war is a pure position.<br /><br />Not sure what your agenda is. Am surprised at how inept a liar you are.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-33762493127517479222010-09-19T04:27:32.498-04:002010-09-19T04:27:32.498-04:00"I see frustration with ASP's consistent ...<i>"I see frustration with ASP's consistent insertion of HER OWN MEANINGS into Jack's own statements."</i><br /><br />Um, yeah. Unfortunately, Jack's statements are not expressed in a vacuum but within the language system where meaning is created based on how words are used, you know? Those are not "my" meanings, as words cannot be divorced from the larger context of their use and meanings predominantly ascribed to them through it. Which is kind of the point that I've been trying to make here, you understand? I mean, obviously you don't, but -- try?<br /><br />As for upset, Jack repeatedly asked me to fuck off. Seeing as he's not usually given to swearing at his readers, I'd say that points to at least a small degree of upsetness.Aspnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-71038741190235544652010-09-04T16:16:00.989-04:002010-09-04T16:16:00.989-04:00what a lively, Serious discussion! i hope everyone...what a lively, Serious discussion! i hope everyone here reads a lot of gay blogs; they tend to inform discussion about these sorts of issues.chicago dykehttp://www.correntewire.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-29112991186474388822010-09-04T16:08:46.667-04:002010-09-04T16:08:46.667-04:00i'm a feminist. 13W is bad because it's pr...i'm a feminist. 13W is bad because it's pro-Nazi. not because it's silly about other stuff. i enjoyed it as a movie, even as i hated it as an academic. consumerism, meh.chicago dykehttp://www.correntewire.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-4582997570602162922010-09-02T11:59:02.398-04:002010-09-02T11:59:02.398-04:00nice post, great discussion! thought I'd pass...nice post, great discussion! thought I'd pass these along for your enjoyment:<br /><br />http://www.crispinsartwell.com/shockey.htm<br /><br />http://www.crispinsartwell.com/gay2.htm<br /><br />I get called "fag" all the time out riding my bicycle, training for races and whatnot. "fag!" "where's Lance you faggot!" etc. I'm as "straight" as can be. <br /><br />once you boil an individual down to a set of checks on a list, ie. these mean gay/these mean straight. . .not that I think it's wrong to identify yourself with other like minded folks, it's just. . .so what? it's reductionist and arbitrary. there is a wide variety of human behavior that should simply be identified as part of a wide variety of human behavior. who cares?<br /><br />but since we live in reality, what we see is what, a culture war? lines are drawn, distinctions made, codes enforced, wagons circled, etc. you can try and bump the meaning and intention out of a word, but it's just going to wind up somewhere else. I recommend a kung-fu, zen like approach to those wielding words as weapons. aim to confuse them. disarm them with absurdity. culture jam. <br /><br />at any rate, I find I'm most pleased with myself when I yell back, "why, do you want to lick my asshole!? my wife won't even do that!" after being called "faggot!" while out riding. and when someone yells "get off the road!" I yell back "fuck you, faggot!" imagine the skinny cycling dude in spandex calling you a faggot. confusing. as. hell.Mr.Fundamentalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16475863637866037045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-26101038529798904452010-08-25T18:32:53.344-04:002010-08-25T18:32:53.344-04:00No sweat, Jack.
I see it as the gulf that exists ...No sweat, Jack.<br /><br />I see it as the gulf that exists between the knuckle-dragging dirt-eating organic intellectual, and the formalists who "think" by parroting the stylings, mannerisms, lingo, etc. of academic "intellectuals".<br /><br />(All quotation marks intended to show euphemistic reference.)<br /><br />Passive aggression is standard fare for the formalist intellectual, a big part of whose self-worth is tied into formalist superiority, a position gained by taking a knee in the academy, gaining "good marks," while learning a whole lot of ... stuff. The ground-up intellectual tends to either make more of that opportunity (i.e., actually LEARN something), or reject it as hoop-jumping left best to trained animals.<br /><br />As an example of LEARNING something I would submit those who synthesize and connect what they learn, without being totally obeisant and sycophantic toward the teacher, or toward the material itself. <br /><br />The trained animal example fits well with many, many Marxists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-29148175848048975892010-08-25T14:59:25.998-04:002010-08-25T14:59:25.998-04:00Thanks, Charles. That's precisely my point. AS...Thanks, Charles. That's precisely my point. ASP wants to try a hand a passive aggressive bullshit, and it doesn't work here. I meant what I meant, not what ASP wants me to mean. Full. Stop.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-56623235028712222032010-08-25T14:16:29.871-04:002010-08-25T14:16:29.871-04:00I don't see Jack being "upset."
I s...I don't see Jack being "upset."<br /><br />I see frustration with ASP's consistent insertion of HER OWN MEANINGS into Jack's own statements.<br /><br />Statements by Person A mean what Person A intended, not what Hearer Z wanted them to mean.<br /><br />Playing the accusatory card, asserting that Jack's "upset" -- that's bullshit. You're ignoring the words themselves, inserting your own meaning, and then insisting that your meaning controls.<br /><br />Yeah, I know... Derrida and Foucault and deconstruction sanctify that shit, don't they?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-1338475506261049182010-08-25T12:10:07.036-04:002010-08-25T12:10:07.036-04:00Your honesty is not in question; what bothers me i...Your honesty is not in question; what bothers me is the refusal to acknowledge that this sexual insult carries specific connotations which are not erased when you try to expand the word's meaning. I don't doubt your honesty, I don't think you want to insult gays, it's the language relativism that irks me. Hence my original question: why use an insult that carries specific connotations if you don't mean to imply them? Why the assumption that how a word is used normally is not relevant to how we may use it?<br /><br />And your interpretation of the word is flawed. It misses out on the fact that a power relation/status is not observed through the use of the word, but in fact established. <br /><br />Faggot doesn't just mean "someone who accepts the dominance of others" -- this dominance is <i>imposed</i> on the faggot precisely by branding him as such. The use of this insult is supposed to assert the superiority and dominance of the one who insults, and thus constitute the faggot as the one who is being dominated.<br /><br />You may think you can ignore this (or whatever other) dimension of the use of specific words when you use them, but, as you can see, I disagree. <br /><br />And, you know, I'll fuck off now, but the first part of your post suggests you expected to receive some "criticism, critique and condemnation" for it, so why are you so upset now?Aspnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-26286934090951444712010-08-24T19:21:26.791-04:002010-08-24T19:21:26.791-04:00ASP,
I meant exactly what I said I meant, not wha...ASP,<br /><br />I meant exactly what I said I meant, not what your Mistress Cleo Crystal Ball tells you to believe I meant.<br /><br />Kindly, fuck off if you cannot accept my honesty as a ground condition.<br /><br />I wanted to try an inversion of the term, because I found quite appealing the irony of a bunch of overly macho idgits who tend to kneel to alpha power when confronted with it.<br /><br />That's it. That's all.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-24199563607719342502010-08-24T17:12:08.752-04:002010-08-24T17:12:08.752-04:00No, this just means that you get to use a word tha...No, this just means that you get to use a word that's a sexual insult but pretend it's not a sexual insult, despite it's current usage and contemporary history, and despite the fact there's a gay person right here in this comment thread telling you it's a sexual insult. <br /><br />Also, you don't think saying that faggot means a homosexual male yet claiming that it does not evoke penetrability is a tad (oxy)moronic?<br /><br />Btw, I may not be a native speaker of English but I possess dictionaries (several, good ones) and sufficient language comprehension skills to understand what words mean and in what contexts they're used. A skill that seems to evade you.Aspnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-40911739152934799852010-08-24T14:39:20.361-04:002010-08-24T14:39:20.361-04:00Words do not carry absolute, unchanging platonic f...Words do not carry absolute, unchanging platonic formal meaning, ASP.<br /><br />If they did, then "truth" would still mean "pledge," and not "unassailable fact."<br /><br />If they did, "faggot" would still mean "bundle of sticks" and not "homosexual male."<br /><br />If they did, "revolution" would only mean "to revolve around," and not also "to overthrow and reconstitute."<br /><br />If they did, "stasis" would not mean "frozen state" but would still continue to mean "state of civil war."<br /><br />Get it?<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />So what does this mean? It means that I can use a word and not mean "penetrability" even if that pisses you the fuck off and ruins you whining little thesis.<br /><br />Fuck off, now. Ok?Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-35958637942029821982010-08-24T13:25:56.564-04:002010-08-24T13:25:56.564-04:00At every insult I can imagine, somewhere in the la...At every insult I can imagine, somewhere in the layers of meaning is a sexual under- or over-tone. <br /><br />Arguments for politically correct hypersensitive speech tell me more about the advocate than they do about what humanity actually needs for social harmony.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-15268224366808651712010-08-24T04:50:39.210-04:002010-08-24T04:50:39.210-04:00If you don't care about "penetrability&qu...If you don't care about "penetrability" why use an insult that specifically refers to it? Calling a man a faggot (by other men, usually) is meant to denigrate him by associating him with feminine behaviour -- being penetrated (and the feminine is by default devalued, which is why if you want to insult a guy you tell him he does something "like a girl") -- and there is no way you can use a word like that <i>without</i> implying a "psychosexual component," which you claim to be doing here. The point of that insult is precisely sexual.Aspnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-19964836053726424842010-08-22T22:49:57.262-04:002010-08-22T22:49:57.262-04:00I like your own write up, TPR - it has some intere...I like your own write up, TPR - it has some interesting commentary. But you got my motives wrong.<br /><br />I'm not trying to find someone lower on the rung, I'm mocking the rungs itself, and people who live lives of hierarchical anxiety, the sort who project onto displaced and dispossessed groups their own insecurities. People who fear gays, or brown people, or Mormons, and use them as emotional scapegoats for their own insecurity.<br /><br />I don't care either way about "penetrability." And that's not me doing a liberal-about-sex thing. I just don't care. Call it enlightened apathy. Or whatever. It just isn't me being liberal, for sure.<br /><br />When I mock "kneeling," there's no psychosexual component. I mean, literally, those who take a knee. The feudal and neo-feudal/industrial corporate oaths of fealty.<br /><br />Respect,<br /><br />JackJack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-87851132616917792292010-08-20T18:20:30.200-04:002010-08-20T18:20:30.200-04:00Everyone knows in their 3AM darkness, their heart ...Everyone knows in their 3AM darkness, their heart of hearts, the depths of their soul... when they are being bigoted. Even Archie Bunker knew he was a bigot. And what is bigotry anyway, but a salve for one's pride, one's self-respect?<br /><br />That's an explanation, not an excuse.<br /><br />Humans being tribal, they band together in their ragging on others. The more insecure, the more extensive the crowd-fury, the deeper and more direct the insults.<br /><br />I'm of the thought-school that says it's all just words and what matters is the sense of threat or danger one feels when another is playing verbal battery and mayhem. Somehow America ran away from personal responsibility in the 2d half of the 20th Century --probably because personal injury litigation is a nice "driver" of profiteering for those who might not have a profitable work niche otherwise-- and the result is that we now have a babying culture, where political correctness has more evocative and persuasive power than real harm (or real threat thereof) for a great number of Americans. <br /><br />It's a rare adult in America who hasn't had to suffer verbal insults and ego injuries at the words of another. Some of us may have known it only on rare occasions at schools or on playgrounds; others may have had a hard time escaping such attacks even in their own homes, from their own parent(s). Probably most of us fall between those ends. <br /><br />Some subcultures in America have a group relational game that depends heavily on one's ability to creatively insult another. Lots of people call this game "The Dozens" but I've heard it called "ragging" and "jagging" as well. I'd imagine that most anyone who grew up as a part of that subculture knows how to see words as just words. <br /><br />Finally, I can't say I have much ability to relate to insular groups whose members are primarily a generation behind me, age-wise. I assume a lot of harmlessness and intended harm are lost to me in poor attempts at translation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-33632344922449807972010-08-19T10:18:29.862-04:002010-08-19T10:18:29.862-04:00It's a good post, but you're wrong here:
...It's a good post, but you're wrong here:<br /><br />"And there it was, one of the new and very modern (perhaps post-PoMo?) meanings of the term." <br /><br />There's nothing new about it, let alone modern or postmodern; it's quite old, even ancient (think of Catullus's poem 16). There are times when I think that what you're talking about is the <i>original</i> meaning of the word and its equivalents, but really they are inseparably intertwined. I'd strongly recommend that you read C. J. Pascoe's <i>Dude, You're a Fag</i>, which I wrote about <a href="http://thisislikesogay.blogspot.com/2009/05/dude-im-fag.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. I also wrote about your theme <a href="http://thisislikesogay.blogspot.com/2008/03/faggot.html" rel="nofollow">here.</a><br /><br />I'm not sure what can be done about the attitude involved. I think of it as something to do with Boy Culture (to which I'm not immune, though I'm a faggot). But there's an equivalent, "slut," which has roughly the same meaning for women (and for gay men). I'm glad you called that gamer on his stupidity, but he's still stupid and vicious.<br /><br />One of the best things that Pascoe says is this: lots of straight men claim that they wouldn't call a gay man a fag, but they're lying. They would, and they do. (And they freak out when a faggot calls them on it.) Some straight men -- well, pretending to be straight, anyway, which may be what straightness is -- have told me that guys have to have such a word for use in what amounts to dominance games, which they see as normal (probably, but normal doesn't equal good) and necessary (maybe, maybe not).<br /><br />Again, a good post, and food for more thought.Duncan Mitchelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05304723745550906958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-31782856336690486132010-08-19T05:23:44.328-04:002010-08-19T05:23:44.328-04:00Shoutout to your superego: Y'got no less than ...Shoutout to your superego: Y'got no less than a dozen readers, and only by tracking your traffic could you find out just how many more than that. At any rate - or for what it's worth - I like your prosaic commentary as much any of the actives out there in the wide web world, and your entry last week had me replying in thirds: devastation, humility, and incompetence (I failed to successfully publish my comment).<br /><br />I think Ethan and Ginx have expressed synergically why I avoid certain words: when the derivation fails to disregard the hate. But I guess that's the point, so one might call me a faggot in the "pussy" sense.<br /><br />I do think that you have adequately contextualized your usage of it, however, and find it sublime that by questioning your counterpart, I daresay you forced him to think about something he wouldn't've otherwise. You have broadened the scope of gaming.<br /><br />From one of my favorite faggots:<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42fyiFuwkE0<br /><br />And somewhat to your point:<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxMrWSTlvggdavidlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04754707934311038544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-44138454906219118302010-08-19T01:09:46.323-04:002010-08-19T01:09:46.323-04:00Maybe you're overthinking it, and people just ...Maybe you're overthinking it, and people just say the most offensive thing they can come up with when they're trying to insult someone.<br /><br />And maybe if you weren't such a noob, you wouldn't have to worry about this... :-PAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02504734487692109101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-91299924787105555642010-08-18T23:13:26.405-04:002010-08-18T23:13:26.405-04:00I know, Ethan. I took the extra step of scribbling...I know, Ethan. I took the extra step of scribbling this out by hand, first - trying to work out if my point could slip through the history of the word, could escape the actual context.<br /><br />Mostly, I think it won't. Like "nigger," it inscribes itself with a history that some people, by virtue of their exclusion, by the force and violence which delimited the creation of the category in the first, cannot fully understand.<br /><br />No one has ever screamed that word, or growled it through gritted teeth, against me with the intention of demeaning <i>my</i> sexuality.<br /><br />So, I don't presume to understand. I don't and won't claim it as a redeeming mantle, a token of my enlightenment, or include myself within its scope. <br /><br />That wasn't my intention.<br /><br />I just wanted to juxtapose this emerging meaning (I see and hear it all the time, especially from children of an age with my own) with the actual sort of people it describes.<br /><br />I have likely failed, but this is a condition to which I have accustomed myself.<br /><br />Respect,<br /><br />JackJack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-16244003723191569982010-08-18T23:04:25.086-04:002010-08-18T23:04:25.086-04:00Words have histories that fight against this kind ...Words have histories that fight against this kind of recontextualization, but for the moment at least I'm tempted to say I like this. I might have more complicated thoughts to share later on.Ethanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07498712279382078624noreply@blogger.com