tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post4779770788402250245..comments2023-12-23T19:04:18.739-05:00Comments on The Crow's Eye: Gate, KeptJack Crowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-78034800265170038862011-11-11T22:04:48.116-05:002011-11-11T22:04:48.116-05:00Wayne,
The details:
one dog to rule them allWayne,<br /><br />The details:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.distantocean.com/2011/11/one-dog-to-rule-them-all.html" rel="nofollow">one dog to rule them all</a>Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-55750907611776218722011-11-11T21:46:59.916-05:002011-11-11T21:46:59.916-05:00Well, the claims for 'leadership' are beco...Well, the claims for 'leadership' are becoming something of a problem it seems. I don't care about rich people or 'celebs' showing up to offer support to these things. It's when they act like they have the right to lead it due to their 'profile'. Then walk away complaining of 'formlessness' or 'lack of direction' when they don't get the show of hands they expected.David K Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10756535951359716522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-82085687745764486312011-11-11T12:10:10.464-05:002011-11-11T12:10:10.464-05:00For what it's worth, Wayne, I don't really...For what it's worth, Wayne, I don't really care about Moore the Millionaire. I care about Moore, the upper class interloper who just tried to take leadership of Occupy Denver.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-83908856128438555852011-11-11T02:44:35.288-05:002011-11-11T02:44:35.288-05:00Just to troll (heh):
http://prolecenter.wordpress...Just to troll (heh):<br /><br />http://prolecenter.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/tom-tomorrow-empathy-is-hypocrisy/<br /><br />Verification: 'Curem'David K Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10756535951359716522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-56449041195314282682011-11-09T11:53:17.219-05:002011-11-09T11:53:17.219-05:00Also, hello multiple readers from the NH.gov site....Also, hello multiple readers from the NH.gov site. Thanks for stopping by.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-87290934389543864372011-11-09T07:22:04.534-05:002011-11-09T07:22:04.534-05:00Well, damn.
Good comments. Think I'll drum up...Well, damn.<br /><br />Good comments. Think I'll drum up a new post by way of reply. Core of it already posted as a comment elsewhere.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-34524507996857015602011-11-08T15:40:52.196-05:002011-11-08T15:40:52.196-05:00To supplement what Jack has written here, the ques...To supplement what Jack has written here, the question of violence in relation to Occupy Together is complex, and heavily dependent upon time and place as emphasized in the post.<br /><br />For example, I was able to get out of the house and go to the Occupy Oakland general assembly on Sunday evening. There was a nearly unanimous rejection of the property destruction and battle with the police on November 2nd and 3rd, not because of the pompous perspective of Moore, but, rather, because of their relationship to their community. Many of them have been involved in the hothouse environment of Oakland activism for years, and feel a strong, almost nativistic bond with a city that is subject to racist vitriol in much of the rest of the country. They know the people who run the businesses near the camp, like the Tully's coffee shop that got vandalized, and have gotten a lot of support from them. They considered the street violence during the last hours of the 2nd and the early morning hours of the 3rd as an attack upon their city by both the police and the young people in the street. Admittedly, after this issue had played out in the camp for several days afterwards, the Black Bloc was nowhere to be seen to give their perspective, but it was clear that they had failed to understand to strong attachment that people from Oakland and the East Bay feel for it. <br /><br />Last night, I watched the assembly livestream, and there was a proposal for a march to support local indigenous and undocumented people in their struggle for acceptance and essential services. One of the clarifying questions was whether the march would be violent, and the woman gave this sort of 'oh, God, no' response, emphasizing that there would be families with children and undocumented people participating and the last thing they want is the prospect of a police assault and arrest.<br /><br />I think that this aspect of the movement frequently gets forgotten, the fact that it is attracting vulnerable, marginalized people, and the worst thing you can do is place them in situations in which they have to deal with police violence.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09164564889343805575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-6005789772220618082011-11-08T10:20:20.627-05:002011-11-08T10:20:20.627-05:00Moore is one of those that has been deeply disappo...Moore is one of those that has been deeply disappointing to me over time. Movies like Roger and Me were pretty powerful tools for redefining the discussion (although forces in the other direction were, as usual too strong to break), but moves like endorsing Clark prove the exact point you make Jack, he is in the long run, more harmful than the crazy Republicans because he gets the lost lambs back into the fence.fishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01522672049371678717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-34209225431091350442011-11-08T09:29:17.254-05:002011-11-08T09:29:17.254-05:00Huh, I'll be damned, Will. You and me finally ...Huh, I'll be damned, Will. You and me finally agree on somethin.JMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03223879013564312871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-14333660748746494502011-11-08T06:49:10.696-05:002011-11-08T06:49:10.696-05:00Rocky, I share your distrust of pragmatic Dems. Wh...Rocky, I share your distrust of pragmatic Dems. When liberals talk of pragmatism or compromise, they're usually talking about surrender.<br /><br />But when you call me a pragmatic Dem, you just show you haven't a clue who I am. I ran as the Grassroots Party candidate for Governor of Minnesota in '94; my issues included drug legalization and single-payer health care, and I came in third in a field of six, well ahead of the Libertarian. I haven't wavered on those issues since then, and I sure as hell haven't suggested that anyone else waver.<br /><br />One reason I respect OWS is they're pragmatic. The US has a damn-near unbreakable two-party system, so OWS is not calling for a third party immediately; they're building momentum and waiting to see what happens in the next election. If that fails--which is almost certainly likely, given Obama's long-established neolib instincts--OWS plans to do the hard work of creating a third party, something that hasn't succeeded since the Republicans were created and needed a crisis as large as the divide over slavery and the threat of secession to succeed. Whether the public is ready to see economic injustice as being comparable, I dunno, but I hope to God they are. If we can't end the Biparty's power, the rich will continue to win the class war.<br /><br />Now, if you're a black bloc supporter, please point to a single example of those tactics winning. In every example I can think of, they were counter-productive or irrelevant.Will Shetterlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08539053268352597627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-59666224568745209442011-11-08T01:47:39.749-05:002011-11-08T01:47:39.749-05:00I don't trust this word "pragmatic"....I don't trust this word "pragmatic". I've learned that when it comes oozing out of the mouths of so-called "liberals", what it really means is let torturers walk away scotfree in the name of political "pragmatism" (perceived partisan opportunism), while denouncing someone that puts a brick through the window of a BoA is a felon of the first order that deserves the most ferocious penalty of law applied to them. When a "pragmatic Dem" like a Shetterly lectures us to be pragmatic" it means, for example, that when it comes to health care we don't get single payer, or even the fricking "public option", but instead the individual mandate to pay private for-profit insurance corporations on penalty of law if we do not do so. Of course those full penalties of lawdon't apply to people who engage in the ultimate war crime of initiating a war of aggression, do they Mr. Shetterly? So lecture me some more about how only "non-violence" is acceptable in this society when great "pragmatists" are perfect;ly happy to see torturers and war criminals walk scotfree, in the name of political "pragmatism" of course.<br /><br />Of course, what political "pragmatism" means to every Dem is this: you8 little people STFU, go home, vote Democratic, and SEND MONEY NOW! while we servic3e the every whim of the ruling class. Who knows, if you're lucky, we might throw you a crumb. But don't hold your breath on that part.Rocky Rococonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-79472337067185832682011-11-07T23:34:49.385-05:002011-11-07T23:34:49.385-05:00Pertinent, imho:
http://www.salon.com/2011/11/07/...Pertinent, imho:<br /><br />http://www.salon.com/2011/11/07/agitators_attack_fellow_occupy_protesters/singleton/Will Shetterlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08539053268352597627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-73884962612956638722011-11-07T20:25:51.677-05:002011-11-07T20:25:51.677-05:00JM, thanks for the link to Seymour's comments....JM, thanks for the link to Seymour's comments. He's quite right. I think what people miss about Moore is he's trying to be pragmatic, to make things better where he can, given the circumstances on the ground. Anyone who reads much about Marx will realize Marx approved of that--we have to work in the real world, not the ideologically pure one.Will Shetterlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08539053268352597627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-71458296609130951432011-11-07T20:17:04.649-05:002011-11-07T20:17:04.649-05:00I was going to ask if you disagreed with Richard E...I was going to ask if you disagreed with Richard Estes on whether the burning of barricades was "unnecessary":<br />http://amleft.blogspot.com/2011_11_01_archive.html#3225482633310024638<br /><br />And as for Moore, I think it's important to have a peruse at Richard Seymour's thoughts in comments here:<br />http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/10/angela-davis-at-occupy-philly.html#disqus_threadJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03223879013564312871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-24579715610976069012011-11-07T14:13:03.832-05:002011-11-07T14:13:03.832-05:00It's not 1920's depression America, or Eng...It's not 1920's depression America, or England during the heyday of Enclosure, but Dillinger and mythical Rob Hood were not without allure to the mass of ordinary people.<br /><br />I'm not suggesting that thievery, on its own, ought be done.<br /><br />But, these were violent men doing violent, even murderous things, and they were not exactly disdained by the trod upon.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-11899006326896187542011-11-07T14:05:17.223-05:002011-11-07T14:05:17.223-05:00Will,
I almost suggested to you that you ask for ...Will,<br /><br />I almost suggested to you that you ask for exactly that clarification; I'm glad you did. <br /><br />The idea of "the feint" comes up frequently around here. I've never been in a bar fight, but the closest I've come is when a guy in a bar made a feint to see if I'd flinch or swing first. This all has me thinking of the way that even the implicit possibility of such feints can be ruled out by the movement, to its detriment -- like showing one card of a poker hand "as a show of good faith" or the like. It's not how the game is played. <br /><br />I don't that's the entirety of what's being discussed; I do think "keeping all options in play," certainly as a negotiating tactic, shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.<br /><br />I wonder too what that old desert anarchist Ed Abbey would have made of Occupy. The violence depicted in The Monkey Wrench Gang was not so much anonymous or disguised as something else, but it did make an imaginative play for popular support. I think at any rate he'd have approved of "anonymous and disguised as something else."Mark Shttp://www.shiftjournal.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-37655162899631623792011-11-07T12:44:13.822-05:002011-11-07T12:44:13.822-05:00Will,
I'm not recommending violence. In fact...Will, <br /><br />I'm not recommending violence. In fact, any violence which might <i>right now</i> serve the purpose of weakening the ruling class' control of the continent would by its constitution be both anonymous and disguised as something else.<br /><br />What I'm arguing against is dogmatic non-violence and the social-compact, majoritarian, sacramental worldview that informs it.<br /><br />More specifically, I'm attempting to show Moore and his ilk for what they are: gatekeepers.<br /><br />Moore's insistence on claiming ownership of OWS is part and parcel of his stated purpose of directing towards reform and ultimate co-option. But, like a good snake oil salesman, he makes sure to warn his crowd about all the other unctuous barkers who have, on their carts, erstatz goods which could obviously in no way compare to the Real Cure he's hawking.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-83442030415455233072011-11-07T12:35:04.640-05:002011-11-07T12:35:04.640-05:00Okay, rather than object at this point, I'll a...Okay, rather than object at this point, I'll ask for clarification: what violence do you advocate? What form of violence do you think could succeed in today's climate?<br /><br />One quibble: Gandhi's tactics for rebellion never failed. His failure was in not setting up an organization to lead after the rebellion won. So many rebellions initially succeed and ultimately fail for that reason.<br /><br />But ignore the quibble, 'cause it's just a quibble. What's your proposal for useful violence?Will Shetterlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08539053268352597627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-69059781569223300592011-11-07T12:24:17.967-05:002011-11-07T12:24:17.967-05:00Will,
I'm wary of the argument from preservat...Will,<br /><br />I'm wary of the argument from preservation and purity. Tactically, I understand any number of circumstances to recommend against violence.<br /><br />But, as a posture, non-violence is problematic. This is not the Raj, and nothing the woman-hating fakir in a loincloth accomplished survived the moment of independence. Bharat, today, is a militarized nuclear power, ridden with caste and castoffs.<br /><br />This is also not 1961. We are not in post-war boom years, with a behind-the-post Southern economy incapable of handling sustained mass Black unrest.<br /><br />The state and the ruling class we have are quite comfortable with reformism. They already control all of the agencies through which "reform" and will be managed. <br /><br />They will accordingly tolerate peaceable unrest right up until the first bomb falls over Isfahan. Then, with "the left" divided yet again between the "anti-war" types and the other identity factions, the liberal institutionalists will quietly re-assert their control.<br /><br />Despite what good sir Ioz has recently had to say, if we'd like to prevent those bombs, and shift our weight with any real effect, the PTB need to lose sleep.<br /><br />And they're not scared of puppets and placards.<br /><br />Non-violence has its moments. Ours is not one of them.<br /><br />Mark, Elissar -<br /><br />I too look forward to Arthur's promised revaluation.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-18814317900222182962011-11-07T12:11:11.243-05:002011-11-07T12:11:11.243-05:00Mark S, a preemptive nod does not make an objectio...Mark S, a preemptive nod does not make an objection magically disappear. Perhaps I can make this simpler: Cops love black bloc tactics. It gives them an excuse to repress protest and present that repression as protecting people and property from violent thugs who are more interested in violence than revolution. People who use black bloc tactics are the enemies of the people, regardless of whether they sincerely believe they're helping or they're on the police payroll. Why help the ruling class? Gandhi and King were right to keep the message of their protest simple.<br /><br />Note that I'm not arguing for absolute pacifism. I'm with Malcolm X, who said, "Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery." Malcolm never called for people to go out and riot. What black bloc fans fail to realize and provocateurs know: A riot is not a rebellion; it's only an expression of rage and an invitation for state suppression.Will Shetterlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08539053268352597627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-84055604521045259932011-11-07T12:10:15.532-05:002011-11-07T12:10:15.532-05:00You're right that people do "identify&quo...You're right that people do "identify" with the general idea of Occupy even if they aren't overtly supportive. I'm in a smallish college town in the South and our Occupation has, at best, 30-40 active members. <br /><br />The ratio of supporters to hecklers around our camp (which is highly accessible to the public at large) and when we hand out information or just talk with people is roughly 1 to 1. <br /><br />But I think it can be done in small cities, it just ends up, usually, being quite different than major metropolitan areas. Thus far we've had two arrests-were-about-to-go-down incidents with the local PDs. The first one ended with us backing down, but we managed to reorganize and forced serious concessions in the second major encounter.<br /><br />Violence is a whole other matter--it'd be all but impossible for our occupation to be "more radical", since there is no anonymity here and local public opinion would turn almost totally against us. <br /><br />As for whether this (or any) American movement to overthrow the heaving machine desperately feeding on an endless supply of human flesh that is our State could succeed without violence--that is a tricky question. Given history, I'm inclined to say "no". And the ruling class will invariably increase their violence towards all protesters and dissidents, disruptive or peaceful, as they feel pressure on their positions of wealth and power.<br />---<br /><br />@Mark: I too am waiting for Silber's more detailed analysis of this, I've really been hoping his voice would reappear soon as this movement has grown.elissarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-30544816248920605192011-11-07T11:40:15.640-05:002011-11-07T11:40:15.640-05:00Arthur Silber reports he has been reading, and thi...Arthur Silber reports he has been reading, and thinking, and rethinking, particularly on Thoreau's remarks on John Brown. He finds this all much more complex than one might guess from the remarks of, say, a Michael Moore or a Will Shetterly (remarks which <em>were</em> given a preemptive nod in paragraph six above). Me, I'm interested in seeing what Silber has to say here.Mark Shttp://wwwwww.shiftjournal.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-26499901906303650182011-11-07T03:20:35.025-05:002011-11-07T03:20:35.025-05:00You Americans,
it's in your DNA!You Americans, <br /><a href="http://fritztucker.blogspot.com/2011/11/american-autumn-pt-3.html" rel="nofollow">it's</a> in your DNA!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9102937856333775840.post-61318379000619299912011-11-07T00:59:41.941-05:002011-11-07T00:59:41.941-05:00There are things I like and dislike about Michael ...There are things I like and dislike about Michael Moore, but when it comes to violence, he's right. Why else do the police use provocateurs who try to change protests into riots? Because it's convenient for the ruling class to turn the debate from economic injustice to hooliganism. They want to control the narrative. Only nonviolence keeps the message pure.<br /><br />Now, should cops or soldiers attack, of course people have a right to defend themselves. And the ruling class should fear that.Will Shetterlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08539053268352597627noreply@blogger.com